Hi,

 

I need to ask some pre buy question but since there is no general SF topic area to post to I decided to post this here.

 

I’m fairly new to .NET and obviously new to SF so I need some insight and opinions on SF. I’ve looked at other frameworks like Java based (servoy) and .net based (Idea Blade and SF) but SF seems to have a lot to offer in their framework, Role-based Security and Database Deployment modules at a reasonable price.

 

I’m looking into reengineering a fairly complex somewhat commercial MS Access app that uses SQL 2000 as a backend. The idea is to bring the app to a more robust front-end and ideally make it into a Smart-Client software as a service (SaaS) model with a limited counterpart website.

 

So far I’m impresses with SF and especially with its smart-client demo’s performance using the ES. Keep in mind that I’m fairly new to all this so I know I’m biting more then I can chew.

 

So my questions are:

 

1. Is SF a good choice for this type of project?
2. How robust would SF and its ES in a Smart-Client SAAS scenario be?
3. How effective is the ES and SF BO on a website?
4. When will SF integrate with VS 2008 .NET 3.5 and how will LINQ and its OR/M affect SF future?

 

Thank you in advance for your answers or advise for that matter,

 

JC

JC,



I'm a SF user (so this isn't an official SF response) who is in the process of doing exactly what you have described: taking an Access app, connected to a SQL Server 2000 database and converting it to SF/.NET. Down the road, I'll be turning it into SAAS (once I get the actual app running) and I see limited web front ends in its future as well. I've been using SF for about a year now (11 months, if you include my trial time). When I started I was new to .NET as well. First I'll give you my answers to your questions:





Very good choice, for a lot of reasons.



First, .net is just a whole lot more powerful than Access was. You have a zillion controls, including the extended ones from SF; you have real OOP so you can subclass; you have constructors...the list goes on. That power comes at a price though. Access did a lot out of the box, especially related to data access. This was daunting when I was considering .net (or anything else for that matter). If you just use to build your app .net, you have a lot of coding to do to get the same functionality that Access provides for you with no work (data binding, concurrency, data retrieval, loading combo boxes/list boxes, etc.). This is were SF comes in. If provides many of those functions. Using business objects (BOs), binding is easy, data retrieval is easy, business rules are easy, filling list/combo boxes is easy. Nice



Second, as you mentioned, there is the other stuff in SF: role based security, the DDT, lots of UI controls (PanelManager, themed controls, link menu, gradient header, etc.), plus a ton of other tools (thread manager, registry support, error handling tools, xml and compression classes...the list goes on).



Third, you aren't boxed into a corner with them. You can extend your own controls or third party control to support data binding using SF BOs, and this is pretty easy to do. You can use the BusinessBindingSource to use ADO.NET binding with a control (like with grids). You can add custom properties to BOs, directly manipulate the data in a BO (if the standard methods don't work), extend how a BO works...



Fourth, there are a bunch of samples (with source) and when you purchase SF, you get the source code. This, it turns out, is amazing helpful. I use it all the time to figure out how to do things in .NET/SF. The samples are very helpful to figure out how to actually do something using SF. Need to provide binding to a non-SF control, there is a sample that shows just that. Need to figure out how to fill a listview, just check out the samples. The source code for SF is very helpful too. I've used it a bunch to figure out how things are done in .NET. Of course, having the source means that you can also change SF if you need to (not recommended, cause then you have to deal with reconciling your changes with updates from SF). I've seen this done when a bug is found that is complicated to fix for the SF team (because they have to think about all the possible uses of any given feature), but the fix for the specific developer was easy (they don't care how anyone else is using it).



Fifth, the support for the product is excellent. Let me amend that, it is amazing. Not only have I been able to get many SF related problems fixed, whether it is something I'm not understanding (very common ) or there is a bug in SF code, they are very responsive. They often release fixes related to specific problems immediately when the developer needs that fix. Even more amazing, they also help with general .net problems. I've learned a ton about .net development here in the forums.





Based on what I've learned it is robust. ES is very nice. I'm about to deploy it and all testing indicates very nice performance.





I have very limited experience with this, but BOs allow you to reuse your business logic with multiple font-ends. Not sure how effective using ES with a website is.





What I've read on the forum indicates that SF will currently work with VS 2008. They have worked on LINQ, but aren't going to release anything until after VS 2008 is officially released, at which point LINQ will be available (in what form I don't know).





I'm sure one (or both) of the SF developers (Ben or Trent) will chime in with more info/better info I just wanted to let you know that you aren't the first in this situation and that, so far, I'm really, really happy with SF, both the product and the team building it and provide some of the reasons I'm digging it.



Finally, if you do decide to go with SF, I'd highly recommend the training class. There is one scheduled for early December. The secret about SF is that these guys aren't really framework developers, but application developers who needed a framework They have the same problems we have and build the framework to fix those problems. I really think they need to start offering a class that is about application development strategies/techniques. They do a lot of that in the class as it is and those are the gems....oh and Trent buys the beer for everyone



Good luck with your conversion!

Wow, Greg...thanks for the response.  I know that Jc will appreciate this.  Oh, and I see that you are the one signing me up for the beer buying this go around   That is fine, Jc, you get down here I will definitely buy you a beer

Greg, had a lot of good things to say, and he is correct on each point.  I will add to his comments as it relates to VS2008 and LINQ.  StrataFrame will already work with .NET 3.5.  When VS2008 is released we will also have full integration support as we do with 2005.  LINQ is a great tool and we are excited about it and will be part of our 2.0 release which will be released sometime in 2008.  But as Greg mentioned, StrataFrame was a result in our need for a framework, so we use StrataFrame as a company every day to develop our medical software. 

To add to the ES points that Greg mentioned, we spent one year developing this product...actually more like 15 years   We have wanted a SaaS model for our medical software for 15+ years but have never really had a good mechanism to do this...thus, our ES.  This product was created for scalability and with SaaS in mind.  There are a number of large organizations that use the ES...including the Department of Defense, so scalability and speed are obviously a major component of this tool.

Finally, Greg is correct.  The training class will make a huge difference in your coming up to speed in developing in .NET as well as in StrataFrame.  I have posted the class training guide to this post so that you can see the material that will be covered.  I highly recommend coming to the December class...I think that it could move months aside in your developnent cycle (or possibly more).

Let us know if you have any more questions or if we missed anything, but I think Greg pretty much got it said

Wow is correct…I guess Greg will say anything for a beer, I’m sold

Greg,

It’s good to read that someone is going through the same trials and tribulations as I am and that SF met their needs, and you hit the nail on the head when you mention that Access does a lot out of the box and that jumping into .NET seems like a daunting task so I’m glad to hear that using SF makes this transition and adoption much easier and I’m already taking notes on some of the things you mention to look them up.

I fact I hope to have the chance to pick your brain and possibly collaborate since we seem to be on the same path. Maybe you can tell me what roadblocks to expect and what do’s and don’t to set me in the right path… Just met you and I’m taking advantage of you already…terrible

Trent,

Thanks for clearing the latter part of the questions especially about the ES and SaaS since it is a key to my business model, and hey if the DOD is using it then I guess its good enough for me.

I hope to be able to take that December class and if not I’m sure I’ll take the next one and I’ll take you up on that beer and I’ll buy one for Greg for such a convincing post.

I believe my questions have been answered and it looks like my needs and expectations will be met. I’m sure I’ll be participating in this forum a lot and from other posts I have read support is A1 and the knowledge and participation of the other members is impressive.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my post and looking forward to being a part of this community…

JC

Actually, Ivan started the whole beer thing. He even needs a special hat when he attends the classes. (see attachment)







Any time...just remember that my memory isn't what is used to be



I'll tell you that the biggest issue to start was the paradigm shift. I'd spend three hours trying to figure out how to do something...only to discover that is was done with a single line of code. Happened over and over. Posting on this forum helped a lot, though it sometimes would take a while to get my head screwed around a concept. Don't forget to search the forum for issues, too.







Well, that's how a community works, isn't it? I like the "pay it forward concept"...you pass on the help to others when you are in a position to help them.







I'll not be making this class, though I really appreciate the thought. I think Ben Hayat had the right idea though, to repeat the class whenever there is a major release. I'll be back at some point!







Likewise!

ROFL

That's awesome, Greg!  I may REALLY have to buy that hat now!!!